One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.
At this point, it became bluntly obvious to me that the man probably has not played, or even touched, a video game since the likes of Pong. This whole point of his is flatter then 3 week old open soda. Is he insisting that a video game can't be art because you can win it? That a video game absolutely cannot be a representation of a story, and that only novels, plays, and films can? My bias senses are tingling!
Video games simply aren't made like that anymore, I'm sure you guys know this as well as I do. There are some truly gorgeous and even inspiring video games out there, like the Metal Gear Solid series or Tales of Symphonia, for example. Of course, you won't find those, or any other highly acclaimed, examples in his article. Instead, we get three games that are poorly chosen at best (although that's the defender's fault on that part) and the best part is he doesn't actually experience them as they should; they should be played, not watched.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this article had he simply said "In my opinion, video games can't be art" or "Not all video games should be considered art," but no, he completely dismisses the whole medium as "unable to be art" as if it's fact. He reminds me of a bitter old man who still insists that the Beatles isn't music; that rock and roll music is still the work of the devil or something.
_________________ The Local Video Gaming Lunatic
Recent stuff I'm into:
Watching: A Certain Scientific Railgun (ep.14, stalled), Hoshi no Kirby (ep. 71, stalled), Nazo No Kanojo X (ep. 8), Acchi Kocchi (ep. 8)
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I can't read that article, not only because it sounds incredibly stupid and ill-researched, but because the website keeps crashing my browser.
But from that quote, and what you said, the man sounds like an idiot.
In a sense, at the core of his argument is this: When you play a game, you are not experiencing anything. Absolutely nothing. If anything, games can be more involving than other storytelling mediums. Because the viewer - or in our case, the player - is actively involved in the story.
Every time someone introduces me to a person like this - doesn't matter if they're talkng about video games or philosophy - it greatly saddens me that such people exist, and will probably not have changed their minds by the time they die. How can someone be so driven by bias as to blind themselves into such foolishness?
I can't read that article, not only because it sounds incredibly stupid and ill-researched, but because the website keeps crashing my browser.
But from that quote, and what you said, the man sounds like an idiot.
In a sense, at the core of his argument is this: When you play a game, you are not experiencing anything. Absolutely nothing. If anything, games can be more involving than other storytelling mediums. Because the viewer - or in our case, the player - is actively involved in the story.
I think his only real argument here is that a video game is solely meant to entertain and therefore can't be considered art. Which is kind of silly considering things like music, plays, and movies (basically the very things he acknowledges as art) were originally just means of entertainment and probably weren't considered art back when they were first introduced. But he probably doesn't realize any of that, and probably never will.
Dark Zaphe wrote:
Every time someone introduces me to a person like this - doesn't matter if they're talkng about video games or philosophy - it greatly saddens me that such people exist, and will probably not have changed their minds by the time they die. How can someone be so driven by bias as to blind themselves into such foolishness?
He's probably just too bloated from his own arrogance thanks to an enlarged ego, from being an acclaimed film critic and all.
_________________ The Local Video Gaming Lunatic
Recent stuff I'm into:
Watching: A Certain Scientific Railgun (ep.14, stalled), Hoshi no Kirby (ep. 71, stalled), Nazo No Kanojo X (ep. 8), Acchi Kocchi (ep. 8)
Reading: nothing
If he says Video Games can never be art he has CLEARLY never heard of Okami for PS2 and Wii. That game literally IS art in terms of graphics and gamplay.
I recall this coming up ages ago, why are we only discussing it now?
I honestly don't care enough of what he thinks anyway, I take most critics words lightly. By the point that you've decided that you can take a piece of art, dissect it, and tell exactly what about it is in your view art, your definition of art is too restricted and systematic for me. I consider most things that I step back and look and say "oh, that's pretty neat" to be an art of sorts, regardless of their intent.
If he says Video Games can never be art he has CLEARLY never heard of Okami for PS2 and Wii. That game literally IS art in terms of graphics and gamplay.
As I said before, he probably hasn't touched a video game since the likes of Pong. Although Okami does look pretty neat and innovative. Can't say I ever played it though.
fireball87 wrote:
I recall this coming up ages ago, why are we only discussing it now?
This probably did come around a long while back. However, it was a little before I made this topic that I actually read his "analysis" and thus this topic.
fireball87 wrote:
I honestly don't care enough of what he thinks anyway, I take most critics words lightly. By the point that you've decided that you can take a piece of art, dissect it, and tell exactly what about it is in your view art, your definition of art is too restricted and systematic for me. I consider most things that I step back and look and say "oh, that's pretty neat" to be an art of sorts, regardless of their intent.
You view things very similarly to myself. Not sure what else I can say without straying too far off the subject.
_________________ The Local Video Gaming Lunatic
Recent stuff I'm into:
Watching: A Certain Scientific Railgun (ep.14, stalled), Hoshi no Kirby (ep. 71, stalled), Nazo No Kanojo X (ep. 8), Acchi Kocchi (ep. 8)
Reading: nothing
Yeah, I read his article after posting, it's fairly recent, seems that he's back on this spiel again... he first annoyed people with this, what, well over a year ago?
Yeah, I read his article after posting, it's fairly recent, seems that he's back on this spiel again... he first annoyed people with this, what, well over a year ago?
So I've heard. I think he said something similar a while back, but I don't remember when it was or even exactly what he said.
_________________ The Local Video Gaming Lunatic
Recent stuff I'm into:
Watching: A Certain Scientific Railgun (ep.14, stalled), Hoshi no Kirby (ep. 71, stalled), Nazo No Kanojo X (ep. 8), Acchi Kocchi (ep. 8)
Reading: nothing
I love how all of you dissing him are forgetting that this is ROGER *beep*ING EBERT. Only the greatest and most prolific movie critic in American history.
And to be fair, he does have a couple of valid points.
Just because you have a big fancy title doesn't make you intelligent in all areas. You say he is a movie critic. How does that qualify him to be a video game critic, in any way, shape, or form?
I love how all of you dissing him are forgetting that this is ROGER *beep* EBERT. Only the greatest and most prolific movie critic in American history.
And to be fair, he does have a couple of valid points.
...so what? It doesn't matter if he's a big name movie critic. His opinion doesn't mean squat when it comes to video games, as he made it quite clear that video games aren't his forte. His arrogance and bias on the subject is apparent in the article.
I read through the whole article and I don't think he addressed any real valid points. Unless you found something that I overlooked?
_________________ The Local Video Gaming Lunatic
Recent stuff I'm into:
Watching: A Certain Scientific Railgun (ep.14, stalled), Hoshi no Kirby (ep. 71, stalled), Nazo No Kanojo X (ep. 8), Acchi Kocchi (ep. 8)
Reading: nothing
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